Study: Minorities more likely to be paddled

So you think that a child who had to deal with the physical and emotional ramifications of having a parent on drugs should go to school and be hit and embarrassed there, instead of finally having some place to go where he or she is not afraid or angry?

Have you ever had to live with someone drug or alcohol addicted, let alone be raised by one?

You're right, let's punish the children. Let's hit them. It is of course their fault that they have no structure at home, and hitting them at school will powerfully change their lives. I love a good movie where a troubled kid goes to school and bonds with a teacher who hits him. Don't you?

Before resorting to a paddle--consider this--the kids have simply never been taught. They don't know how to behave because no one has ever shown them. Punishsing ignorance teaches nothing. Let's use the acting-out moments as a "teaching moment" for all concerned.

I agree completely. A little embarrassment never hurt anyone. And why should the entire society have to deal with one family's lack of supervision and parenting skills. You can boo-hoo with them and have them growing up expecting everyone to feel sorry for the the rest of their life or you can discipline them and get their attention.

MissLeh, actually i did grow up with someone who was alcohol addicted. My father was, and 27 years later, is still and alcoholic. He beat my mother, threw horrible fits, destroyed things around the house, did his drunk stumble all over the house, and treated my sister and I like crap. When my mother finally divorced him and remarried, my stepfather was almost as bad. And I got picked on miserably in school because I was fat, but even though I dealt with all of this, I amazingly didn't shoot the place up or turn to drugs or do many of the other horrible things kids do today. Plus, my aunt was also a teacher at the small school in my small town, so guess what, if I did something wrong, there was a chance I would get spanked even though it was not policy at my school. I am so glad I got spanked as a kid, because it DID work. I learned that there are consequences to my actions, and if I don't like the consequences, I shouldn't commit the actions. The kid up the road from me, who was NEVER spanked, has been in severe legal trouble and is still a burn out. He learned at a very young age that he could do whatever he wanted and no one would do anything about it. Spare the rod, and you'll spoil the child.

Whatttt???? "white's don't get a free ride????" I hate to burst your bubble, but the grand majority of those on welfare are actually WHITE.

Joe, would you keep going out with a girl who embarrassed you then? OR would you like your children to embarrass you in public? If it's okay to be a little embarrassed, well then why doesn't it work both ways?

MissLeh - you miss the point completely.

"You're right, let's punish the children. Let's hit them. It is of course their fault that they have no structure at home, and hitting them at school will powerfully change their lives. I love a good movie where a troubled kid goes to school and bonds with a teacher who hits him. Don't you? "

I'm sure the teachers aren't picking the students that are bonding with them and spanking them.
You distort the issue.
You also conveniently change the term from spanking to hit - which is your attempt to, again, distort the issue.
Most of the replies above yours get it right.
It is punishment for behavior. The US youth needs so good ole boundaries.
Cross the boundary and get an APPROPRIATE punishment.
I got paddled during grade school for a few things. Each of them deserved.
The teacher said stop talking 2 or 3 times before I got the paddle.
I just didn't listen and she couldn't teach and the students around us were distracted.
Pretty simple.

Can someone explain to me why it's not hitting when you "spank" the buttocks, and it's not hitting when you "slap" the face, but it is hitting if you hit any other part of the body, using the same force and the same hand?

Making exscuses for bad behavior is what has gotten our society to this point. So quit with the downward spiral. Quit making exscuses. When you exscuse bad behavior because of 'situations' in their home life, all you are doing is setting them up for failure in the future. Your not doing the child any favors. You teach them how to justify everything and incorporate failure and allow them to rationalize their bad behavior. STOP IT! You people are the problem, not the solution. Not only is your 'lets talk to them and nurture and rationalize thier acting out' routine is hamstringing them, but its also ruining the environment for all the others who are there to learn. It does not promulgate a learning atmosphere.

When a child disrupts a classroom making it harder for other children to learn they should be disciplined. This should include embarrassment and occasionally paddling.

No.. when a child disrupts a classroom making it harder for other children to learn, he should be removed from the classroom. And discipline and punishment are two different things. Discipline is a teaching tool... punishment is what happens when you don't get the lesson.

The only thinking a paddling teaches a child is that he doesn't like to be hit.

ECHOE wrote: Can someone explain to me why it's not hitting when you "spank" the buttocks, and it's not hitting when you "slap" the face, but it is hitting if you hit any other part of the body, using the same force and the same hand? In dispensing discipline in the form a 'spank' you should NEVER EVER NEVER hit in the face. NEVER!!!!!! The better use of the word 'swat' instead of 'hit' is more in line with this article and its responses. Hit indicates a slap in the face or punch in the gut. SWAT the buttocks only!! Or a 'slap' on the hand (when you do this , you do so with only 3 of your fingers or 2 to match the size of the childs hand and allow for only a sting. you DO NOT want to full force slap the hand - you could break it)
The difference is in the style you use to 'swat' as opposed to hit. A swat is done with your hand and only hard enough to sting, to leave an understanding between the 2 of you. To hit means you are winding up for a good slug or whatever and infers great great pain and/or bodily harm.

The difference is in the style you use to 'swat' as opposed to hit. A swat is done with your hand and only hard enough to sting, to leave an understanding between the 2 of you. To hit means you are winding up for a good slug or whatever and infers great great pain and/or bodily harm.

And what, pray tell, is the correct term for coming at your child with a wooden board? I know if I did that to you, it would be called assault and battery with the intent to cause bodily harm. Is your body somehow different that a child's body? Aside from being much bigger and posing a greater threat, that is....

And when, pray tell, did I ever indicate I hit my child with a board??? You bleeding hearts need to stop reading more into what one says than is really there. I explained the differnece between a 'swat' and a 'hit' and you somehow turn that into 'coming at a child w/a board'? Do tell how you come to that conclusion??? Get off your high horse and come down to reality , which is, too many parents today are too afraid to discipline their kids for fear they won't be liked by them and also they will hurt their feelings if they teach them the difference between right and wrong. If there is no right and wrong taught you have anarchy by the kids in our society. OhWait! We do havethat now don't we?? Thus, my conclusion would be, the liberals and the parents who follow the liberlas are too afraid to train up a child and we now have kids out of control!!

And when, pray tell, did I ever indicate I hit my child with a board???

What do you think a paddle is, exactly? And I have read and re-read my words and still fail to see where I charged you with such... I was addressing the topic of this discussion.

You bleeding hearts need to stop reading more into what one says than is really there. I explained the differnece between a 'swat' and a 'hit' and you somehow turn that into 'coming at a child w/a board'? Do tell how you come to that conclusion???

Explained... see above.

Get off your high horse and come down to reality , which is, too many parents today are too afraid to discipline their kids for fear they won't be liked by them and also they will hurt their feelings if they teach them the difference between right and wrong. If there is no right and wrong taught you have anarchy by the kids in our society. OhWait! We do havethat now don't we?? Thus, my conclusion would be, the liberals and the parents who follow the liberlas are too afraid to train up a child and we now have kids out of control!!

What politics has to do with any of this is beyond me... However, I could just as easily say that you conservatives are too ignorant or lazy to understand that discipline doesn't have to include pain.... but I won't. Because I am pretty sure that not all conservatives are like you. If your limited vocabulary will not allow you to teach your children right from wrong using your voice, then by all means, wail away on them. Thankfully, I have the time, patience, understanding and the desire to actually parent my children. They know right from wrong.. and choose right 9 times out of 10 because they understand WHY it is right... not because if they don't someone they trust may assault them.

Martin
eventually they all get caught!!! They get tickets, get fired from a job, go to jail etc. Sounds liek you know a few adults who didn't get the spanking they NEEDED when they were little kids. lol

I guess in 2042 my grandkids are in for a whoopin.

Spank your own damn kids. You're not a ward of the government, nor are they. You want your kids disciplined, be proactive and do it yourself.

Spank your own damn kids. You're not a ward of the government, nor are they. You want your kids disciplined, be proactive and do it yourself.

And therein lies the heart of the problem, parents that are too damned lazy to discipline their own children leaving the responsibility to the schools.

Precisely my point. I called my parents 'mom and dad' for a reason. Because throughout my life, whether their choices were right or wrong, they had a very active role in who I became as a human being. If I did wrong, I was disciplined. If I did well, I was praised. My parents talked to me when talking needed to be done (even if it was uncomfortable) and they gave me freedom when the time was right.

If they had left all that up to a lethal combination of television and teachers, I wouldn't call them mom and dad. Just 'two people who gave me food sometimes'.

maybe that is why the US is crippled with so many young criminals maybe a good spanking once in a while would have showed them how to respect authority. Now teachers would not be scared to teach or be worried that some young punk will pull out a handgun and soot at him/her.

"There should never, ever, be any form of physical punishment in schools, or anywhere else for that matter." - Yeh, we should let everybody do what they want from the earliest ages possible. We all know that time-out has solved all of societies problems.

"It's the kids that grow up being physically punished that become adults who think that violence is ok" - This type of thinking and Kool-Aid drinking is what has got us into the mess we are in now. No, it's parents that beat their kids not spank their kids properly, and those who don't stay consistent in their disciplining that cause this.

The one thing I do agree with is that spanking should not be handled at school, it is the parent's responsibility. So many "parents" shirk this responsibility and are in turn culturing "viruses" to unleash on society. The U.S. is raising a generation of whiners that believe they are entitled to everything and have no respect for authority. This is also why we are loosing so many hi-tech jobs to second and third world countries, they are punished in school and typically show respect to authority.

I also find it interesting that they said that minorities tend to be spanked more often. I wonder if this has to do with the fact that many more black than white children are raised in single parent homes? Maybe it could be that the hip-hop / gangster role-models show no respect for authority, so why should they? Whatever it is needs to be solved in the home first.

Your pen name says it all.............your in lala land!!!

Spank them.............detentions and time outs do absolutely nothing to teach these kids discipline...........don't believe me? Look around at the teenagers and 20 - 30 year olds around today, they grew up with the lack of discipline and most of them are smart mouthed punks!

I'm damn tired of you people going around blaming your own kids for YOUR BAD PARENTING. Your the Looser that can't teach your kids respect for their elders, As usual stupid people blaming the symptoms for the cause, I was paddled in grade school and all it taught me was that I want to belt my principle in the Mouth, I think your a Sick Twisted individual if you get off on spanking little kids and should be locked up for perverse sick thrill seeking by spanking some poor kid who's parents can't get away from their TV for 20 minutes to spend time with their kids. As usual a load of parents sweeping their problems under a rug, rather then face the REAL issue, your own Poor parenting! GO beat yourself for being a looser at parenting!

Do you have any evidence of your statements? Children who have a firm foundation at home, which includes discipline, grow up to become productive citizens. Children who are "free" to act as they wish just because their parents are idiots will become idits themselves. The discipline needs to be in the school because these kids will not get it anywhere else. Discipline is not physical abuse ... it is a lesson of life that their actions will have a consequence!

I thank God my child is not going to school in Arizona!!

As an educator I know that parents have to give consent for their children to receive this form of punishment. I think the issue may have a little more to do with culture than race. Corporal punishment is more accepted and employed more often in the African American community, therefore those parents give their consent more often.

I have had parents, after we have conferenced over the phone about a student;s behavior, request their child be paddled. Our administration is very reluctant to do this and will often request the parent come up to school to paddle in lieu of the administration paddling.

There are several reasons for the statistics. I do not advocate paddling. If it gets that far, you have already failed as an educator and a disciplinarian.

Sorry, but saying that no one should ever be punished is a non-runner - worse still, this is what has brought both the US and the world to the situation we have now. Look around you, in the natural world - you get dumb, you get punished. Whether it's a bear cub that gets knocked over by its mother (who is still fiercely protective), or a human walking over a cliff, everyone needs to know that some actions are unacceptable and there will be consequences.

So, I challenge you - what is the incidence of insane murders today in our permissive, non judgemental society, and a hundred years ago in a repressive, punitive society? You did not have the prevalance of senseless cruelty because you were taught that this behaviour is unacceptable.

I absolutely agree with the comments the teacher has posted, I worked in both military and civilian day cares in New Jersey and additionally during college worked with autistic children. The only conclusion I can find to paddling is that the individual doing it, is perhaps in need of help themselves.

maybe that is why the US is crippled with so many young criminals maybe a good spanking once in a while would have showed them how to respect authority.

I thought this was the job of the parents... Cripes, might as well have a TON of kids now that I know there's a system in place to do all the work for me...

Where are you guys coming up with this stuff? I was spanked as a child, and paddled in school once. A "Spanking" or "Paddling" is not "Violence"! If someone is "spanking" or "paddling" a child to the point it becomes violent, then it is no longer a "spanking" or "paddling", it is child abuse. All a spanking does is turn a little butt pink and embarrass the heck out of the kid, letting them know the grown ups are in charge whether they like it or not. The fear of a repeat is what kept me out of trouble. I didn't grow up to be abusive, have never hit anyone, and thanks to my parents, live a morally good life.

It's a lack of discipline that keeps our juvenile courts hopping!

Just wondering if you think a system of slavery which occurred during your so-called punitive and repressive glory days did not involve senseless cruelty. I don't think this society has ever been cruelty-free. It just depends on your perspective on history. True, cruelty seems to have gotten more perverse and more senseless, but it is not new.

Discipline is another story, quite different than cruelty. And we need not revert to oppression to emphasize discipline. My concern with corporal punishment in schools is that discipline can vary from teacher to teacher, from day to day. As a former high school teacher, I witnessed some teachers who were wimps and never wanted a confrontation and other teachers who were great at creating strict yet successful teaching environment (cruelty-free) and yet other teachers who were so severe in their discipline the students were stifled in their exploratory learning process. Then there goes the notion that teachers are human and have good and bad days. Who's to say that a teacher will not bring their personal baggage to the classroom while wielding the power to hit a child. What behavior deserves a whack with a paddle? What are the limits? Will there be consistency?

The kids who shoot in school don't shoot the teachers and kids they deeply care about, they shoot the kids and teachers they resent, most often for bullyting them for years. DUH. There's what spanking and beating up on a kid both physically and emotionally will get you. SHOT.

Those kids who shoot most often choose people they don't know, or don't care about or deliberately choose those who impacted their lives in the most negative way.

As for murderers in the past, again, media is a world wide attention getter. We most certainly DID have murderers in the same approximate numbers percentage wise in the past. (geez Jack the Ripper got lots of attention, so did Vlad the Impaler, so did a lot of them and that meant they were SERIOULSY notorious.) You just don't know about most of the murderers becuase they are stories you would actually have to search out rather than having them handed to you on the internet.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO GET AWAY WITH BAD BEHAVIOR IN YOUR CLASS AND THEN GET HIGH SCHOOL AGE WHERE THEY ARE LOOKING EYE TO EYE WITH THEIR TEACHER AND ARE CAPABLE OF PHYSICALLY TAKING IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL BECAUSE THY WEREN'T PADDLED IN YOUR CLASS.

I have noticed differing opinions based on gender in these posts. Men seem to favor a more physical approach and women think a good talking to is best way. As a man I can tell you, talking did little good as apposed to spanking. The proof is in how many little talks a person receives before they finally get spanked. If after 3 good talking to then some time-outs one gets to the spanking stage the first part[talking] basically did not work. If the rules are easy to understand and enforced with a clear knowledge of the consequences then for boys anyway a spanking will do the most good. Young men need more re enforcement that a stern talk and that's why in a traditional family unit the father is the enforcer and mother the nourish er. After one time with a paddle in school I never got into any trouble again but that came after a dozen or so sit downs talks. The fear of the paddle got my attention not the words of wisdom and thank god or most possibly I might be in the "iron bar motel" today.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO GET AWAY WITH BAD BEHAVIOR IN YOUR CLASS AND THEN GET HIGH SCHOOL AGE WHERE THEY ARE LOOKING EYE TO EYE WITH THEIR TEACHER AND ARE CAPABLE OF PHYSICALLY TAKING IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL BECAUSE THY WEREN'T PADDLED IN YOUR CLASS.

THAT'S THEIR PARENTS JOB.

(caps lock is above the shift key, in case you were wondering)

Seriously. If the government parents your kids, then you all might as well call yourselves communist and be done with it. YOUR kids are YOUR responsibility.

No aggression begets aggression. A spanking doesn't have to be aggressive. No kid will respect a parent that flies off the handle and spanks out of anger. But if it's a PLANNED spanking, organized like any other punishment without any out of control anger, then it could work just as effectively.

Kids are always smarter than adults. Adults are always wiser than kids. This balance needs to be understood before any discipline is going to work

okay, if it's PLANNEd it works. anyone here want to tell me if corporal punishment works so very well, why then, when it's even MORE dire people in Afghanistan still steal food when they KNOW they'll lose a hand? Is that because pain works? Because KNOWING that you'll be punished works?

It has NOTHING to do with pain, it has everthing to do with knowledge.

Boundaires have to be set, that is true, but do you have to have PHYSICAL boundaries to know not to go onto someone else's property? Does an electric fence have to be set on every yard? Or are you TAUGHT to respect? And when the person doesn't do you get to go out and physically hit them? Oh wait, Spank them? Do the police get to assault them? NO.

That's another one:

If a POLICEMAN, who's job it is to enforce the law, may NOT hit anyone, or inflict any kind of pain legally upon a subject, why oh WHY should a teacher or a shcool enforcer? the police REMOVE the person from the premisies and give them a cell where they can THINK ABOUT what they did. Then the person goes to a judge where they are meted out a punishment (not physical mind you) that is appropriate for the crime.

Echoe, thank you! There are many very effective ways to punish people of all ages without resorting to physical violence.
Aggression = violence!!!
The racial disparity is sickening!!!

PocatelloMom-35
Well said. I nearly cried when I read your comment. Good for you for protecting your child. It's amazing how many parents won't, but think they are.

Thank you CaliforniaNative.
During our current battle with the school district we have found that a lot of parents don't realise that they even have a voice to stop the things they disagree with within the public school system. It has been a very eye opening experience. :(

Then why wasn't he in a special school? There are plenty of them around. Why would you put your child in a public system? The state pays for special schools as well!

I have Asperger's too, I know all about what your child is going through, and this " dam tired of this " I want to meet you in a dark alley and show you what beating a kid who has no control over his mental problems does in reaction to his surroundings, They didn't have special schools or special programs for my autism 30,25,20,15,10 or even 5 years ago, I was considered a career criminal by the school districts and local police dept. from the age of 9, your as ignorant as they come Mr. dam tired of this, Try reading a book about it rather then depending on KKK propaganda reels to learn your morals.

Majored in Psych but didn't get your degree, eh. Sounds like it. Your ways and thoughts are as outdated as putting people in the stocks. If you are saying that there is a direct correlation between physical punishment and how well a person or society turns out then maybe we should bring back the Spanish Inquisition.

Physical punishment is the answer of those that are short sighted and can't intelligently come up with alternative solutions that work better in the long run. It is the answer that should not have it's place in our school systems or society for that matter.

For those that say society is better off with corporal punishment and have never had to suffer though the humiliation, I say you should not show off your true intelligence or lack thereof. Don't leave the decision to those that aren't doing that good of a job teaching our youth in the first place. Teachers who resort to corporal punishment are sadistic, obtuse and shouldn't be around our young in the first place.

You have a lot of nerve to demand this poor womans kid be in a special school, you must live in Beverly Hills, cause theres no Special schools in my state, Your just another Nazi is all you are, Another form of Racist Nazi, Lets lock all the undesirables into special rooms away from the " normal desirable kids" and treat them like they are a walking disease, Go live in your 3rd Rich Adolph!

Finally, a voice of reason. Kudos to you and your family.

Then why wasn't he in a special school? There are plenty of them around. Why would you put your child in a public system? The state pays for special schools as well!

Dam is spelled Damn. Damn.....

Not to be a @!$%# but do we really want people like this telling us how education should be structured?

Excellent post Super Sapien!

"Why wasn't your child put in a special school?"

Because the child has to learn to get along in everyday surroundings. We don't institutionalize everyone who is different anymore. Or maybe YOU should go into YOUR little world instead and not come out into the sunlight.

Learning to get along in everyday surroundings does NOT mean that the child is obligated to perform in the exact same manner as everyone else. It means that the child can and will learn to master the differences in such a way that benefits himself to be a better person.

Einstein himself would be ranting and railing at most of you. His teacher hit him regluarly for being stupid. He dropped out in 6th grade. And do any of you understand his theories indepth? He was GENIUS and is still being proven correct in his theories with the latest proof of space bending coming out last year.

So sad the teacher didn't beat it out of him to think the way you all do.

truthbeknown, okay, explain to me, you didn't get corporal punishment, and ...here's where I'm confused... you're a GOOD person? Or are you webbing from jail? Cuz If you're a GOOD person and you were never corporally punished, why are you arguing that it works? You'd be proof that it isn't NEEDED. You kind of contradict the HECK out of yourself there.

I WAS corporally punished for things I never did and for NOTHING other than because my mom was angry and wanted to take it out on me. It sure didn't stop my behavior, because there wasn't any to begin with. In FACT, she called me a liar for so many years, that when I hit the age of 14, I decided, that well,heck, I was going to get in trouble for lying whether I did or not, so why not lie? It turned out that MY intelligence overruled because I recognized that if I lied, when it was crucial to be believed by others (not my mom cuz she never believed me) I would have a hard time finding a believer or help if I needed it. It sure wasn't BEAT into me to not lie.

She even laughed about it this year, how she came home one day when I was sitting in the kitchen while my dad was cooking and I was talking with him. She slapped me across the face. Well, guess what? I slapped her back. I'd had it by then. My dad pulled us apart after that, and mom told me THIRTY YEARS LATER, that's now, that she did it because she thought that I was a bad child and that hitting me out of the blue ought to fix it. Sure... keep up with the delusions people.

Pocatello Mom 35, CaliforniaNative,and others, I fully agree and understand. "Punishing" any child, especially special needs, physically amounts to nothing but ABUSE! Please check out my column. I worked with special needs people for years!!! They ARE TRULY SPECIAL!!! Not yelling, just emphasizing!
dam tired of this, you and your kind need to be on an isolated island with no one but your own kind. It would be unpopulated in a very short amount of time because you would kill each other off!!! Hitler wouldn't be your hero, would he?

If you do the crime--you do the time. just another excuser.

Lucy that should extend to sex too. If you have kids, you're in for some hard work. If a child is effectively loved and disciplined at home, there would be no NEED for extreme forms of discipline at school.

Why do people think that it's always someone else's responsibility to take care of their kids? If I had gotten in trouble at school (which I had on several dramatic occasions) my teachers or, if it was serious enough, the principle, would call home. When I got home, my parents would deal with it because THAT'S THEIR DAMN JOB.

Ok, so the kids are in a poor environment at home. Then, rather than support and counseling to (with any luck) improve their outlook on life, they get physically abused by the only other adults in their lives, having yet another lousy experience with authority. This reinforces that "might makes right". That the prison population is more black than white only proves that there are some problems in the black community, and spanking little kids is not going to fix that.

And kids know just how much they can get away with and whom to play to get it,

Wow...

JustMe your flagrant racism speaks volumes about the children YOU'RE likely producing...

Do you spank a diabetic for having an insulin reaction? A deaf child for mumbling unaware that those around them can hear it? An autistic child for only being able to process information one way? Of course you don't. When a child is spanked for no reason other then the teacher using the child's body to get out their frustration out there is a serious problem. And most people (you for example) do not understand the lifelong ramifications that the fear of physical punishment for something that you absolutely CANNOT control has on that child. Its cruel, and Im glad the practice is on its way out the door.

PS for the record - the above examples are all "reasons" that 3 other parents of special needs kids are in litigation in our state (as are we) for spanking (or in our case threatening to spank).

Hopefully those teachers will be fired, but if they have tenure, maybe not.

Greetings , I am diabetic and , also have a hearing loss of 65 - 80 % . Spanking isn't for the adult to get their frustrations out rather , for the one being paddled to understand that their actions have a price to pay . Isn't that what our courts do ? they apply a certain degree of punishment to fit the particular crime committed . This has to be taught at the early stages of life so this concept won't be a mental or cultural shock to the law breaker or , the one miss behaving . This has been taken out of our society for about a generation now and , look where we have arrived . A fairly lawless society ( because of the no reason not to do it ) concept and , a system that doesn't punish our criminals to the crime committed .
It's way past time we teach our next generation to be and , that they WILL be held accountable for THEIR actions .
I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings but , I am speaking from experience from the other side of the fence . there are too many excuses for our actions today .

Jeff

And my son is a 4th grader with Aspergers (a form of autism) who was ripped out of his chair and threatened with a spanking for reading his book outloud. (quietly) He is just learning to read and due to his disorder this is the ONLY way he can process the information.

Spanking him is not going to cure autism - and as a diabetic you should fully understand that it wont stop a child from acting strange for a few minutes until their blood sugar returns to normal. They have not DONE anything wrong. A disease that is out of their control cannot be changed, minipulated, or beat out of them.

You are wrong. There is no price to pay for an action that a person has no control over. This is abuse.

It's not that simple Jeff... you appear to be a great example of it (read your opening paragraph to know what's wrong with "paddling"). I too believe in discipline and teaching what is right from what is wrong, but if I "paddle" an adult, it's wrong and in fact it's a crime (assault & battery). How can I then say that "paddling" a child is right? What example am I offering a child by hitting that child? How do you make it an "equal" punishment? Do all the teachers "hit" with the same force? What constitutes "acceptable levels of paddling"? ..I can go on and on...
As for your comments about the "3 year old", hopefully you will never reproduce. I am very afraid that you lack the basic understanding of what is normal behavior for a "3 year old". You conveniently mentioned the "playing with the thermostat" to attempt to make your point. However, you made no mention about the "3 year old" being "paddled" for untying his shoelaces. If any so called teacher "paddles" a 3 year old child for untying his/her shoelaces, said teacher should be himself/herself "paddled" for "misbehaving".

Greetings ,
Your correct in that any abuse of this punishment needs to be brought to light & punished severely as , it also is a crime , abuse and , ignorance on the part of the one in the position of responsibility to notice circumstances like these mentioned and , should have been made aware of by the school by , being made aware by the parents ( this is their responsibility ) and , if a special need arises like these , these children need to be in special classes where the teachers are trained to deal with these occasions of circumstances of disabilities . This is not unreasonable , there are always exceptions to certain circumstances , this is just common sense that , is not so common anymore . I'm out of here so , go ahead & hit me .

Jeff

Joe-373935
Hooray, great post!

Perhaps you should read my posts before commenting on them Jeff. Here, I'll repost it for you... (For the record, research the IDEA laws reguarding placement of special needs children...based on your comment you are uneducated when it comes to this particular law.)

>>>As the parent of a special needs child I can relate to the mistreatment being far worse for children in special education classrooms. America seems to think that if a child doesn't have the same learning style, and has to deal with mental and physical conditions that are difficult for the most seasoned adult to function with that its acceptable to just label them "the bad apple" and take out their frustration on the child....even though the child cannot change who they are or how they process information.

My child (who has an IEP and has NEVER been a behavioral issue) was ripped out of his desk and threatened with a spanking in front of the whole class for mumbling the words he was reading outloud during free reading period. He has not picked up a book since, and has been too traumatized to return to public school. (We have gotten the office of civil liberties involved, and filed an official complaint with the state board of education. And yes, we have a lawyer involved as well) He is a 4th grader with aspergers for crying out loud!

A teacher being frustrated does not warrent taking it out on a child who CANNOT be anyone other than who they are. Is punnishing a diabetic for having an insulin reaction next? <<<

i doubt that this child was spanked for both or the things mentioned who would spank a kid for untying thier shoes? but they were probably spanked for playing with an electrical appliance. but you say it was for both things so if he had just untied his shoes and been spanked then you would have a reason to complain? what if your kid was playing with the A/C and got shocked or lost a finger would you say "oh well he was just being a kid" no you would sue the school for milloins and blame the teacher for not watching your child. you should be thanking the teacher for stopping your kid before they got more curious and decided to play with the plug or something that he wasnt supposed to be doing.

Give me a break Joe Evans, When was the last time you were in a classroom or an office building? They have lock boxes over ALL thermostats so the chances that the kid actually got to the control on the thermostat is remote, therefor the teacher acted in a violent manner for NO REASON other then the kid was fiddling with it, and good old Jeff there how would you like it if some person slapped you across the face cause they thought your def a$$ wasn't listening to a word they said? I'm willing to bet you wouldn't like it much, I was treated with Worse care in my elementary school years then her kid is being treated, and I hated school and I didn't want to go anymore, so what did they do? They tossed me in a mental Institution and in Juvi hall with real criminals guilty of rape and Theft and vandals, when I simply couldn't process information like the other kids. you obviously won't have any pity for those of us borne with mental disorders and autism, so go live in Nazi Germany with the rest of the Hitler youth you grew up with! ALL of you people who think cause we're different that we deserve to be sorted out and shuffled under a rug some where rather then have to learn tolerance and understanding and acceptance of other people and their personalities are nothing more then Nazi's plain and simple, go read a history book and realize your true calling in life, Hitler youth!

Invader Zim- Sounds like they let you out too soon- try processing the thought (slowly) that lack of discipline at home (spanking included) is why so many young people today have no respect for life, property, law, etc..

Invader Zim-

You were sent to Juvi and a mental institution because you can't learn properly?

PocatelloMom-35-

Your child sounds to be an isolated incident, and I too am interested to know how much "compensation" you are seeking from the courts. Seems like that money could be better invested in finding higher quality educators than lining your pockets. Lastly, no one ever claimed that what that teacher did your child was appropriate. Any teacher that inflicts bodily damage on a child needs to be punished. However, a few swats on the butt will NOT inflict bodily damage, but ripping a child out of his desk very well could.

JOE-373935-

There is a fundamental difference between adults and children. Children are not at a maturity level to understand the court system to the same degree adults are required to. This is why the courts treat minors accordingly, and have less severe punishments.

Children are fully capable of understanding spankings very well.

To sum things up. I believe spanking your own children can be very effective, as long as it goes with a deep and loving relationship. You have to build your child up every day with positive reinforcement and nurturing. Then on the rare times when the child has a temper tantrum, give a verbal warning, and follow up with a spanking. Obviously the intention isn't to damage your child, but to teach the values taking responsibility in your actions. Plus it also helps define your dominance in the household, which is necessary to reinforce the rules you have set.

Isolated? Do you know all of the teachers in your school district? Talk to your kids (if you have any) and ask them who the "mean" teachers are. Ask them if any of their teachers pick on certain kids.

As far as spanking for the AC incident, how is that going to better the situation? NO every child does NOT understand spanking. The child DOES however understand when someone verbally communicates that the action was WRONG.

Let's say you're sitting at a table eating and someone comes along and smacks you in the head. You have NO idea what you did, you understand that someone hit you. Until and Unless someone explains that slurping is NOT a complimentary thing in the U.S. you would not know that it was wrong. Or if you did something else tha no one taught you was wrong. Maybe the child never had an opportunity to "play with the AC" in the parents' home because he was better watched... and therefore never had to be disciplined over that.

Being publicly humiliated for trying to learn something is a horrifying experience. I had a teacher in 5th grade who asked the class to laugh at a boy who was dyslexic, only the teacher didn't know that. We were supposed to laugh at his slow reading in order to "encourage" him to read faster. I also know of another boy (whose mother engaged in allowing her boyfriend to sexually abuse him and spanked him when he didn't submit) from all exterior surfaces, he was normal. But he pummeled another kid who made reference to "gays" and had no idea what was happening to that kid. He was about to be expelled from school, until someone finall took the time to hear him out. He didn't know that you can't hit, because he'd always been hit, he also didn't want to be made fun of and thought that everyone knew but just ddn't talk about it.

Spanking is physically hitting someone. Not all associate the being hit with the action. Until and unless it is pointed out what was done, most children (especially toddlers who are learning all of life.) do NOT understand why they are being hit.

When a child does something dangerous and the parent spanks them, it's usually because the PARENT was terrified and acts in anger and on a sudden judgment, rather than a thoughtful one.

Spanking to some of you may be "just a swat" but it isn't for all parents. For some it is until the child cries, for others until the child is bruised and for others it is ALL forms of punishment, for misspelling for falling asleep in church for tearing clothes accidentally. Stop saying it's nothing. It isn't "nothing" for everyone. For some it is with a belt, some say with the buckle, some say with a whip, some with a branch from a tree. Hands can be harmful too.

Did anyone ever learn from the Pavlov's lesson? The bell rang and the puppy ate so anytime the bell rang, the puppy anticipated something good? Did you know the flip side of it? If the puppy was zapped electrically, it took him FAR longer to learn NOT to eat, and even then, if he was hungry, he chanced the pain becuase he might get food.

I think the problem here is society's gross confusion over the difference between discipline and abuse. It is not the act of spanking itself, but the mental state of the spanker, that determines whether the act is helpful to the child (discipline) or hurtful (abuse).

If a spanking is administered by someone who is angry and/or frustrated, it's abuse and this is what "teaches" violence to misbehaving children. They grow up equating the emotions of anger and frustration with hitting the person who is "causing" their anger and frustration.

It is extremely sad to me to see programs on TV like "Nanny 911" and "Take Home Nanny." I personally believe that parents could learn a GREAT deal more about the correct way to discipline children by watching "The Dog Whisperer." Over and over again, Cesar Milan (are Mexicans considered a minority group anymore?) states and demonstrates that dogs sense the energy of their owners, and that all discipline must be administered SWIFTLY, with calm, assertive energy. And not with anger and frustration. He's proven over and over again that it is not the act, but the energy of the act, that either works or doesn't work. He also teaches correct estimation of effort.

I personally believe that a swift cuffing, properly administered with calm, assertive energy, is the way to go when you need to get the child's undivided attention. I only remember being spanked once in my life by my mother. After that, I never drew on the walls with lipstick again. :) I also remember the most abusive aspects of my childhood involving teachers and students who never hit me once.

Echoe-

I wasn't trying to state facts, that's why I said it "seems" to be isolated. I hardly ever hear of abuse in schools, and there are millions of children going to school. Myself, as a child, I can not remember a single event in which the teacher physically or emotionally abused a child. I remember my teachers as very loving and nurturing.

You have a good point that you have to speak to the child when you spank them, otherwise they will not understand why they are being spanked.

You go on and on about how some parents spank with different intensity and methods. Well maybe the discussion should be the intent and manner in which the spanking is executed, instead of whether or not to allow it.

You mentioned Pavlov's dog. Well changing your priority from avoiding pain to sustaining life is not equivilant to deciding whether or not to whine about not getting your favorite action toy from walmart knowing full well that you will be disciplined if not handling the situation properly.

Sexual abuse and emotional abuse has nothing to do with spanking, you're talking apples and grapefruits here.

fine4more-

I agree that your intention has a lot to do with the outcome of a spanking. Interpretation from the child might change from learning that they will be disciplined to being afraid their parent does love them because every time they get angry they hit them. I don't think spanking should be done in anger.

hmmm. the three year old should be punished for playing with the AC. The adult shouldn't have the AC in a place where any child can play with it! Hello!

As for Dog Whisperer. We aren't dogs. If we could verbally communicate with our dogs (as in they communicated back verbally) that would change the situation. Nor does he spank or hurt the dog. He gives it short leash, so that he doesn't HAVE to punish it for leaping forward on a long leash and pulling the owner off his/her feet.

It wasn't about sustaining life, because if you know about Pavlov's dog, it was fed in between times so it didn't need the food. It sought the reward. That's the key. when a child is fixated on doing something that it chooses to do, spanking only teaches the child to find another way to do it, in such a way that it won't be caught or spanked. Such an example of the man from Philadelphia who did things that he did not get caught for. Spanking didn't stop him from bad behavior.

Spanking on the other hand DID teach me to hit back. I'm not a hitter. When I went to live with another family who never hit me, I finally learned how a person should be treated. The sexual abue incident was an example of how easy it would be for someone NOT to KNOW this child's situation and yet decide to spank him for his behavior in school. By the way, that boy is in prison now. So much for teaching him right from wrong. It was also an example of how easy it is to use spanking for very wrong purposes. Forcing a child to do what YOU want and not teaching them how to seek what they want in a proper manner, or that what they want isn't something they should want is NOT appropriate.

If it was, then the judges would be able to take prisoners out to the yard and beat them in public, I believe it was once called public flogging. There is a HUGE legal gap here. Again, why should it be okay for teachers or school officials to "enforce" using physcal means, when it is NOT legal for the actual enforcers of the law to use physical means? Why should we teach our children that it's legal to be physical with littler human beings, but it isn't with adults who are better able physically to handle it?

Echoe-

The AC shouldn't be in a place where the kid can't play with it? Maybe we shouldn't have trees so that forest fires can never start? Want to remove stop signs since sometimes people don't stop?

Why is it not legal for law enforcement to use violence? Have you ever seen someone be arrested that poses a threat? They are not F'ing around. They will violently bring you to the ground and take full control.

Besides when it comes to laws and punishments, adults are required to understand, by law. They are actually capable of understanding what they are fulling getting themselves into. A child doesn't understand, he/she has minimal experience. That is why you teach them every single day right from wrong, and reward/discipline accordingly. that is why the court systems treat juveniles different, and issue lesser punishments.

Oh geez, do you let your child play on a busy highway? An electrical appliance should not be within reach of a 3 year old nay, a GROUP of three year old children. Heck even MY apaprtment has fire alarms in case the ADULTS can't tell there's danger.

I got paddled more than anyone in my class and , guess what ? I deserved every one of them & more because , I didn't get caught for many , many things I did .

So, you got paddled... and still continued to misbehave? That proves the paddlings didn't work.

they apply a certain degree of punishment to fit the particular crime committed . This has to be taught at the early stages of life so this concept won't be a mental or cultural shock to the law breaker or , the one miss behaving .

And this "punishment" is never physical.. so why should it have to be for a child? How stupid do you think children are?

If you absolutely feel the need to punish your child, there are hundreds of other ways to do so that dont involve assaulting them. Who, but a parent who doesn't want to take the time or effort to parent correctly, who choose the assault method over the others?

So many labor under the delusion that spanking is the ONLY form of discipline (and I cring as I describe it as such) that can be used to teach a child. Are you not creative enough, not involved enough, or simply don't care enough to employ another method? If not, perhaps parenthood was just not your cup of tea to begin with.

I am absolutely all for discipline, both in schools and at home, and I have been described as a fairly strict disciplinarian. (By my kids, of course. lol) And I managed that title without physically assaulting my child or allowing anyone else to do so. I always told my children before hand what the consequences would be in any given situation... and then I followed through. Backtalk warranted loss of phone privilege (If you can't talk to me repsectfully, you won't talk to anyone.) Poor academic performance and no TV. (Apparently, you need more study time.) Fighting with a sibling? Go to your room. (If you cannot get along with people, you remove yourself from them.) Don't do your chores and you don't get allowance. (No work, no pay)

I don't know how some of you manage to translate my method of discipline with some liberal "do whatever you want" philosphy... but that certainly was not the case. And as an added bonus, I now have shown my children that you can gain respect from your children and instill values without ever raising your voice or your hand. So, I won't ever have to worry about my grandchildren being assaulted.

You tell em Steve! Spank your own damn kids you cowards, Face them yourself and teach them yourself, I agree with Steve, if I herd that my 4 year old niece was even so much as given a wet willy by an adult I'd beat them down with a Baseball bat for touching her, Sadistic scum that get off on spanking children should be locked up with the child molesters to be with their own kind!

Zim. I think you NEED a major time out!! Enough with your anger issues already. Just because someone believes in corporal punishment does NOT make them a NAZI your remarks are ignorant and scream of your ignorance. My grandfather was an camp survivor, so please let it rest!
I am a little surprised at how many of the posts are in favor of spanking I must say. It speaks to just how of control our kids are today.

When spanking is used to inflict pain, and the parent intends this pain to be his/her sole teaching tool, then it becomes violence. It becomes no different than "teaching a guy a lesson" in a bar fight or something. The pain is the only communication.

When the spanking is used as punishment, along with verbal guidance, it becomes an opportunity for them to learn from their mistakes. Things will happen to them in the future that require them to be ready to accept their consequences.

You are grouping the discipline I use on my child in a very broad category. "Violence" is the bar fight, or a murder, or genocide, or the World Trade Center. The proper, controlled and concious use of spanking is not included in this category.

You outline identical parenting techniques I use with my children. I have no doubt that you also love you children as much as I love mine.

Honest question- Why spank if you use the verbal guidence and time outs? Are they still not learning, only with out the hitting. What does the hitting add to the learning? I have never hit my children so I'm not sure how one goes about doing it without inflicting pain.

I completely agree. There is no way to spank without some degree of pain being inflicted. I will be honest and say that I did spank my oldest child when he was young; and before having my aspergers child. At that point I was educated in the ways of helping a child who does things differently - and realised that the same methods could be used with my older son - and they worked and worked better! I now have 4 children and we do not spank - and for our family it works great.

We choose not to spank. What others do is their business and I will not judge, but no teacher or 3rd party has the right to abuse my children.

California doesn't have crap to do with, I have family from the South and they totally agree. They don't allow their kids to be spanked in school and they're kids are well-behaved. I was a substitute teacher down south and believe me some of those teachers actually do look forward to punishing a child, they actually get off on it. Some will even tell jokes about not having going to work out afterwards.

Truthbeknown... go back to Hitler's House, dinner is done! I hope you have kids some day and just for you they get beaten and raped by their teacher since you believe it's the true way to teach!

Jim thats horrible. I would never wish ANY child harm of any kind. Not for any reason.

Who says I'm not inflicting pain? I get their attention, to be sure, but I'm not punching them in the jaw, either.

What I'm not doing is inflicting injury. They are fine within a few seconds, and usually the spanking is on a pair of jeans or something. I use good judgement. I'm not wailing on them, and I'm not hitting them like they are an adult.

By the way, I rarely spank my children anymore. I do only use the verbal punishment and correction probably... 75% of the time. Spankings are reserved for blatant disobedience, lying, and more serious things like that. I don't go itching or looking for reasons to spank my child. But as they grow older, they should be prepared to face consequences worse than spanking, and a hell of a lot worse than being put in the corner.

Who said I don't inflict pain? They get pain, for sure, but it is less for the hurting and more for the attention-getting. I have control, you bunch of pacifists. I don't hit them like I would an adult. I'm not going around punching my kids in the jaw. Let's not group the spankers in the "monster" and "child abuser" category, however good that makes you all feel.

It should be noted that I don't spank my kids every time they do something wrong. I use nothing but verbal correction probably... 80% of the time or more. Spankings are reserved for blatant disobedience, lying, and other more serious things like that. They don't get a spanking for accidentally spilling a drink or not cleaning their rooms fast enough. You should understand that the punishment fits the offense. Simply talking to them for every infraction across the board gives them no distinction between the little problems and the big, serious ones.

And, California, it is entirely possible to spank your kids without inflicting pain, and get the same attention response for lesser infractions. I do it quite often.

As they grow older, they will need to be prepared to face consequences far greater than a spanking, and way farther than putting them in the corner or taking something away from them.

Benbobbins- A sincere thank you for answering my question and answering in such a way to help me understand your point of view a bit better.

PocatelloMom-35, why would you want to subject an entire classroom to the the disruption your child is causing by reading out loud? Even if not the entire class those in close proximity? Do you have something against special needs classes? Do you know all the facts? Were you there? DeeDee267234, what has religion got to do with this? Sometimes a teacher needs to administer a paddling or some other type of strong discipline. Maybe the parent or parents of a disruptive child should be sued or jailed for not teaching their child proper manners and respect for authority? Folks are certainly quick to jump on the wagon to get in litigation! I am sure a judgement in your favor will certainly fix the problem of a child who has a problem with authority. Just look at today's liberated society. The prisons are full of people in "time out".

Perhaps you should be paddled for your ignorance of federal laws reguarding special education in the United States. Mainstreaming laws initiated in the 1970's prevent parents from demanding that their children be placed in specialised schools or classes. Federal law requires that children with special needs spend as much of their day in a regular classroom as possible and also states that the local school system has to pay only for a minimally appropriate education for these children. neither your tax dollars, or those of the parents in this case, go towards paying to put these children in specialised schools. Perhaps if people like you would prefer not to have to deal with these children in society, you should spend your time lobbying the government to end mainstreaming. At least then you might have a somewhat intelligent position to argue.
As to the parents who are suing the state, GOOD FOR YOU!! Your child deserves better, and in this supposedly civilised nation, we certainely seem to have an abundant share of savages. Unfortunately, they can't change. Their ignorance was fostered by the same school system you are now working so dilligently to change.

I agree that spanking should not be the first form of discipline, it should only be the final form. You should also NEVER spank out of anger. If you receive a spanking it is obvious that you earned it, just like if you receive hugs you deserve it. I do not want my children being spanked at school either so I instill in them right behavior at home that is something alot of parents do not do.

This past school year my then 5th grade daughter was threatened by a boy at school that he was going to kill her. The next day he actually tried bringing a knife to school. He was a kid that was always in trouble, maybe if he received some discipline at home or even some harsher discipline at home that wouldn't have happened. Thank God somebody caught him before he carried out his threat. SPANK AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He was probably beaten at home and knew no other way of coping except in violence.

That boy needs special help, maybe even special education with an aide, maybe medication for who knows what. A kid like that is just not right in the head, and needs to be evaluated. Most teachers, by second grade, were found to be good predictors of who was going to jail as an adult. There is no money to do proper interventions, at least not in Cali.

In my area of California, most people are white, and I have seen white parents doing the same thing, let the kids run wild. The parents are typically young and harried, and coming to the store right from after school care/work - big mistake. But you do what you have to do sometimes. My teens have heard a number of times from me, in these situations, "Don't you EVER allow your kids to run crazy like that!", and they agree, as they watch these wild kids bounce around. Hope it sticks.

black kids, native American kids and special ed kids is what the article is about, And it's true, all 3 get abused more then the pill popping blue collar criminal White kids

Oh, there is a correlation, but we don't agree on the cause. Spanking isn't going to help, but proper discipline will. It is a family counseling issue, and a parenting issue, at this point, in some schools - not all. (Regardless of race.)

I disagree that kids have progressively gotten worse. Media is world wide now, it wasn't then. There were times that the bigger boys beat the littler teacher in class, it just didn't hit the news in the early 1900's There were plenty of hangings of blacks then too, by teemagers. We have a lot more kids now than then. It would make sense that in total there may seem to be more violence, but percentage wise, there isn't that much more. Especially when you add to the fact there weren't that many kids that actually went to school past 5th or 6th grade. Granpa didn't even finish school. He was done at 3rd because he did better working on the farm. (he was a "problem" child. Turns out he was just bored because he had to sit and wait for the other kids to catch up to him.)

As far as blacks being actvely pro spankings. That's actually a slave construct, because most countries in Africa don't believe in hitting their children. It is not a part of their culture. I won't say there aren't people in Africa who don't beat their kids and wives, or sell them for money, but that too, is recognized as wrong. But it was white slave masters who taught that hitting was a good thing and got the head slave to learn to like beating the other slaves.

Yes, I know we're not in slave times, just wanted to illustrate where this belief n corporal punishment by African Americans comes from.

By the way, for those who believe it's African American teachers paddling or spanking the kids:

1998 Digest of Educational Statistics" reported that out of a public school teaching population of 2,561,294 teachers, 2,216,605 were White; 188,371 Black; 108,744 Hispanic; 27,510 Asian or Pacific Islander; and 20,064 American Indian or Alaskan, indicating that the teaching profession is becoming more racially homogeneous due to the influx of more white educators and the decline of educators of color.

Hey Truth, There is a correlation, but they said "good kids find it impossible to learn...because of their peer's lack of discipline", which to me implies that not spanking is causing kids to be undisciplined. I disagree with that. A child acting up needs help, social skills, whatever, not physical threats. Kids with "crackhead" parents, abusive, etc., need removed from the home, not counseled. Duh.
I work with little kids who just need someone to care and suggest coping skills, not big issues, but they are having problems. My teens are great kids who were not spanked. My son was such a sweetie that the teachers paired him up to model good behavior to those lacking, until finally in 3rd grade I asked the teacher to please not punish him for being good. Oh well. Not sure what 200 years has to do with this?

Okay, 19th century American didn't allow black children in school. Didn't have education for all. Had 16 year old teachers barely able to read themselves and not gradutated from a university, had kids pulled out for farming days, usually went until noon and then the day was done, taught three things: reading, writing and arithmetic, didn't teach art, music, nutrition, American civics or history, literature, did not have extracurricular sports. It was also a time when if a father beat his wife and children bloody, it was legal. It was also a time when children as young as 14 could legally marry, it was also a time when the Irsih and the Italians were the detested immigrants and minority. Horse and buggy were the common forms of transportation, or wait, are you saying only ONE thing was good about that time period and nothing else? Or were we supposed to better ourselves as a society?

Violence
Definition: 1. physical force: the use of physical force to injure somebody or damage something.

I have no doubt you love your child with every breath of your being.

You do not spank your children because you "love them". You spank you children because you do not have the parenting skills to "teach" them what proper behavior is. Love should never "hurt". Hitting a child does not make them "respectful". Should you be spanked if you "disrespect" someone else, for example, your spouse? Off course not. Should an adult be "spanked" if they "disrespect" their elders? Your "duty" to your children (God protect them from harm) is to love and PROTECT them, not be the person that "hurts" them (and don't try to explain that "spanking" does not really hurt - try it yourself).

Right on bebbobbins.

I have 2 kids, 20 & 23, both graduated from high school with honors and had several college credits. They both were successful and talented athletes. Both are in college, both on the deans list, my son will graduate in December with honors. He is also a Staff SGT in the Unites States Army. My daughter is studying to be a nurse, she works full time at a surgery center. She also goes on missions in the US and 3rd World countries to help those who can not afford health care. Are they problems in our society??? I think NOT!!

They have never been hit!!!

Eight Dangerous Myths About SpankingBy Debra L. Stang
www.nospank.net

All of the following excerpts have been taken from the above works cited:It may be reprinted in its entirety if credit is given to the author and a link is provided to Project NoSpank at www.nospank.net (I have only included excerpts)

Myth #1. Being spanked never hurt anybody.

But even beyond the mortification and the physical hurt, there is a longer-lasting emotional pain. Among many other negative outcomes, being spanked has been linked to:

Low self esteem (Bryan & Freed, 1982) Depression (Straus, 1994) Masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994) Psychological Distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)

Myth #5: Being spanked keeps children out of trouble.

Being spanked has consistently been linked with aggressive behavior (Frick, Christian, & Wootton, 1999), including domestic violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998)
Jordan Riak, who works with convicted felons, has noted that close to 99% of the men in his groups report being spanked as children (personal communication, 1/9/02). If the goal is keeping children out of trouble, spanking is clearly not the way to go.

Myth #6: Nothing but spanking works on some children.

First, let's look at the child's age. If the child is a toddler, for instance, no method of discipline, including spanking, is going to reliably curb certain behaviors for more than an hour or two at a time. The frustrated parent may get some emotional payoff from the spanking. The child will only be harmed.

Myth #7: Spanking isn't hitting or violence-it's discipline.

Imagine this scenario: an aide at a nursing home for Alzheimer's patients discovers an elderly woman poking at an electrical outlet. The aide immediately slaps the woman hard across the buttocks several times, reducing the woman to tears.

Has the woman been hit? Most of us would agree that she has. Has she been a victim of violence? Most of us would agree to that, also. Furthermore, even though there is no permanent injury to her physical being, every state in the United States would define what happened to the woman as abuse. The aide would certainly lose her job and might face criminal charges as well; the facility would be in danger of losing its license.

But substitute "two-year-old" for "elderly woman" and "parent" for "nursing home aide" and all of a sudden, our perceptions change. The hitting and the violence become a "spanking" and even some of the most dedicated child rights activists start referring to the incident as "sub-abusive." Why? The two-year-old is equally hurt and humiliated by the blows; he or she is no better able to defend against them; and he or she is not more likely to get any benefit from them.

The fact that our society has arbitrarily decided to offer protection to one victim and withhold it from the other does not alter the truth: spanking is hitting and it is violent.

Myth #8: Spanking is not harmful if it's done by loving, supportive parents.

If anything, it may be even more distressing for a child to feel loved and supported by the very people who perpetrate violence against him or her. The child could learn to confuse love with violence, or to believe that it is okay to use force in the context of close, loving relationships. Or, the child could begin to feel worthless and believe he or she deserves physical violence.

Not surprisingly, the research shows that the negative effects of spanking persist, even among loving and supportive families. The negative effects that have been studied in the context of family support include antisocial behavior and conduct problems (Frick, Christian, & Woottton, 1999; Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), teen dating violence (Simons, Lin, & Gordon, 1998), masochism (Straus & Donnelly, 1994), and psychological distress (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996).

We have spent too many years ignoring the research and accepting the myths about spanking without bothering to investigate them fully. The time has come to confront these myths and stop finding excuses to hit children.

Thank you!

no kidding thanks for that, the Proof is in every domestic violence case you can imagine, even my own cousin has admitted to me he beats his girlfriend when she does something he didn't like, and he's an only child/jock, when I told him that wasn't cool to beat up the girl he supposedly Loves he didn't seem to get it, Abusive mentality =abusive actions, and I'm ashamed to be related to a Wife Beater! parents need to punish their own damn kids, not some stranger in a school thats supposed to be a place that PROTECTS children.

I too have a son who is very well behaved, and I'm often pulled aside (either by waitors, waitresses or other parents) and told that my son is exceptionally well behaved for his age, I am a very strict disciplinarian, in that he has to follow normal societal rules and he's expected to be a peron that others enjoy being around rather than tolerate. I was a nanny for nine years previous to having him and the same happened with the chidren that I "nannied."

I've never spanked. Never. The viable alternative? keep bedtime hours so that kids get enough sleep-reduces crankiness or just plain behavior that is a child trying to stay awake when they are exhausted,

explain the rules carefully and clearly, and explain the consequences, lose priveleges and spend time in the corner thinking about your actions.

Make the child explain what they did wrong so that you're sure they understand what they did wrong, sit down and listen to WHY the child did it, I don't know is usually I'm tired, or I'm too scared to tell the truth.

PRAISE what the child did right, because it makes them WANT to do the right thing more. And make a bgger deal out of the right thing than the wrong.

Give the child appropriate age wse choices so that they learn to make decisions on their own. 2 year old can pick a toy to bring, 5 year old can choose between outfits, 7 year old can pick between activites (always limit or you risk overwhelming the child.) 10 year old is old enough to have a conversation about what happened on television or why they don't want to do drugs or other things, as well as the behavior of people on drugs and how it looks. Etc. And these are conversations to have often, so that it is embedded in their brains.

IF a rule has not been discussed depending on the age of the child and the action, the first step is to say this is a bad behavior, please don't do it again because... and THEN punish if it occurs again, if it is a matter of an older child with the ability to know that it was wrong, then punish with the explanation and a discussion (child's end too) of why this behavior was a bad decision.

All of that teaches children that there is a consequence for every behavior. The consequence can be good or bad, but there is one nonetheless. It also teaches the child how to make decisions and to think before acting. Helps a LOT in the teenage years if you teach your child to behave in the toddler years.

It is EVERYONE'S job to care. We share the planet. When other people's chiildren misbehave badly, I have usually told the child that is inappropriate behavior and then taken that child to his or her parent and politely explained what the child was doing and then explained to the parent why that behavior was a danger to both the child and to others. I have never had a parent get angry with me, because it usually enlightens everyone on how behavior affects all of us as well as the child.

Even I had to learn from a pshychologist that a two or three year old child does not repeatedly ask "why" just to tick us off, but that the child is laying down a new "track" in the brain and repeating it makes that track stronger for future use. But hey, some other parent would have punished their child because they didn't understand that the child was learning. The parent would have been frustrated, believing the child was "testing their patience" and spankied them for it. (thus proving the parent didn't have patience...)

Echoe-

You have some really good advice on working with children. Especially the part about explaining to children the consequences of their actions.

On the other hand, how is putting a child in the corner "to think about what they've done" any different than spanking? How is taking away their priviledges any different? Spanking doesn't permanently scar, that's why it's done on the bottom, where the most cushion is. If you were pulled over by a police officer, and they gave you a choice, either take a spanking, or go to jail (being put in a corner) what would you choose? I was given that choice as a kid, and chose spanking most of the time.

The difference between explaining things to kids and spanking, is that the explaining needs to be done BEFORE they act up, and the spanking is done AFTER as punishment.

CaliforniaNative-

I was spanked as a kid when I did things that couldn't be solved by explanation. For example, I had a younger brother. We both shared a room. Well when it was past our bedtime we'd be in there goofing off with the lights off, maybe wrestling or whatever. Eventually things go wrong, the other kid gets hurt, or whatever happens. What are you going to do? Get both kids up when they have to go to school the next day, sit them down and explain to them that it's necessary to get a good nights sleep every night, so that they can be well rested for school the next day. Tell them not to wrestle because someone might get hurt. C'mon that stuff will go in one ear and out the other. Kids will be kids no matter what right? Well as long as you teach them that there is consequence for their actions, that's all they need. We still goofed off later on, but at least I knew that I was in the wrong, and that I would be punished accordingly.

Here we are, 20 years later. I served in the Navy for six years and now am a civilian making more money than the average American in a career for 20 years. I bought my first house at the age of 24, own two cars and a motorcycle. I have never been to jail, never been arrested and never been in the hospital. I have no emotional conditions or history of violence like that website you posted suggests.

My point is, spanking never had a negative effect on me, and I was very well disciplined in school. The most trouble I got in was that I didn't always do my homework until the day of class.

The corner is to take them away from the action immediately. It means they can't continue nor be tempted to continue the action. It also allows time for thinking on the PARENT'S as well as the child's behalf. The parent has to think out what is appropriate to discuss and not be angry over the action, and the child has to think out what he/she did.

As far as the cop pulling me over, if I was a drunk driver it'd sure be easier to get a spanking and hop back on the road wouldn't it? Or would it be better to spend time in the cell not endangering other lives? the cop would be sued like a son of a gun by anyone he hit by the way. It's not legal in any state. And you're talking to someone who worked in the U.S. district court. A judge may not enforce physical punishment either, other than the death penalty. Which is a whole other contradiction in and of itself and one I wrestle with in my own mind often.

Mike-432239 'It would be interesting for someone to research this issue further and see if there is any connection with test scores'

There is there is! It will take me some time but I promise to find it and post it along with the link or works cited.

Public education is a right. That is part of the schools' problem, that they MUST figure out a solution for the severely misbehaving. Some kids sit all lunch and recess in the office, for example. Sometimes the teacher gets special help, like when my brother was given a class of only 12, because a few of the kids were having bad issues (drug addicted parents, the kids were MESSED UP, and will likely have mental health problems as adults also). Some kids get a personal aide assigned to them, for control. Hopefully these kids would not be spanked, because it would truly do them no good - they have already been beaten. Some big problem kids are suspended, but unless it is an in school suspension, they may be home and unsupervised - and quite happy about that.

No kidding, stop passing the buck and forcing those poor teachers to raise your kids for you, If you didn't want to be a parent then abortion should have been your choice rather then passing the buck off on the school system. The problem with problem children is the PROBLEM PARENTS, not the kid. Fricking Blame who is to Blame and stop passing the buck.